Modern Day Magi: The Trinity: False polytheism or Correct doctorine?

Sunday, April 02, 2006

The Trinity: False polytheism or Correct doctorine?

Noun: Polytheism - Belief in multiple Gods.
Noun: Monotheism - Belief in a single God.
Doctorine: Trinity - In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, not proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. (Westminster Confession of Faith)

So which is it?
Is the Trinity a correct Christian Doctorine or is it something more sinister, and is pagan polytheism creeping into the pews?

The following is a cut 'n' paste of an anonymous comment left at Puritan Belief regarding a debate about the truth of the Trinity Doctorine, titled Emmanuel Our Advocate.
_____________________

Anonymous said...
The Scripture attests that “the mystery of godliness is great” (1 Timothy 3:16)—hence I am not presuming to resolve everything with regard to the triune Godhead. May the Lord give us insight into these things.
With regard to the Trinity, I think everyone (on this blog) is agreed that Scripture describes much commonality and overlap with regard to activity and characteristics of “the Father,” “the Son,” and “the Spirit.”
For instance, the Father, the Son and the Spirit all sanctify (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Hebrews 2:11, 1 Peter 1:2), each is eternal (Psalm 90:2, Micah 5:1-2, Hebrews 9:14), each is called God (Philippians 1:2, Colossians 2:9, Acts 5:3-4), and many other examples, including omniscience and omnipresence, and speaking, creating, and loving. And the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, so it should not surprise us that Scripture refers to the Spirit within (John14:17), Christ within (Colossians 1:27), and God within (2 Corinthians 6:16). It should not surprise us that Jesus refers to himself as the “I AM” (John 8:58) or that the “Lord is the Spirit” (2 Corinthians 3:17) or that God sends his Spirit and they are created (Psalm 104:30), or that God sends his Spirit to Mary (Luke 1:35), and the Son of God is born in the flesh. The pattern seen in Scripture, although I do not have space to develop this, is that the Son and the Spirit eternally act on behalf of (and to glorify) the Father (e.g., Jesus glorifies the Father’s name, Jesus is the lamb slain before the creation of the world (Revelation 13:8), the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will—Romans 8:27).
This is to be entirely expected, if as Scripture teaches: “Here O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Nonetheless, the Hebrew word translated "one" in this verse often refers to plurality in unity, such as two people becoming one flesh (Genesis 2:24), the builders of Babel powerfully being one people (Genesis 11:6), the people of Israel answering with one voice (Exodus 24:3), and many other examples. There is a different Hebrew word for “unique,” or “one and only,” but this is not used in Deuteronomy 6:4 to describe God.
Plurality within unity, then is also consistent with Scripture’s describing distinctions within the Godhead. For instance, during Jesus’ baptism, the Father speaks while the Spirit comes down in bodily form like a dove while Jesus is coming out of the water (Luke 3:21-22). During Stephen’s stoning, he is filled with the Spirit and sees Jesus standing beside God the Father in heaven (Acts 7:55).
That Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not synonymous should be clear insofar as: “Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). That Jesus and the Father are not identical should be clear from the fact that Jesus calls upon the Father as his second witness (John 8:16-18). Moreover, Jesus prays to his Father, is often described as being in heaven alongside the Father, does not know the day and hour of his return whereas his Father does, and is the appointed mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). That God the Father and the Spirit are not identical should be clear from the fact that the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will (Romans 8:27), and that “God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, ‘Abba, Father’” (Galatians 4:6).
This view of the Trinity as ontological unity but economic trinity is fully consistent with the Sovereign God who says, “Let us make man in our image” (Genesis 1:26) or who says regarding the builders of Babel, “Come, let us go down and confuse their language” (Genesis 11:7). This is consistent with the God who consistently throughout the Hebrew bible is called “Elohim,” (God in plurality) although he acts with singular verbs (in contrast, when the false gods are called elohim, they almost exclusively govern plural verbs).
This is consistent with the Godhead who is self-reliant and does not depend on creation for anything, who can act as he sees fit, always in the presence of witnesses, including the two other persons of the Trinity (sometimes God calls heaven and earth as two witnesses, as in Deuteronomy 30:19. But clearly this would not have been an option in eternity-past before God created the heavens and the earth). Jesus demonstrates this for us in John 8:16-18: “But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me”.
And it is from those Scriptures (and many others) that is derived the concept of “one God, three persons”—the orthodox view of the Trinity.
_____________________
For more information please see the following articles from C.A.R.M.
What is the Trinity?
Is the Trinity possible?
The Trinity makes no sense. It isn't logical.

See also 1 John 5:7 and The Father's Name at Deeper Truth.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" - 1 John 5:7 - KJV

The doctorine of the Trinity is crucial to understanding who God is.
Christians do not worship three gods but the one true living God. The Father, The Son made flesh (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. They are separate yet inseprable, three and yet One.

19 Comments:

At 4/03/2006 09:56:00 pm, Modern Day Magi said…

Michael Pendleton said at Puritan Belief's post:

"The Father is the Son who is the Spirit who is in us.

The Spirit is in the Son who is in the Father who is in us.

God the Father became flesh, Jesus, and dwelt with us, who said He would come to us and never leave us, Holy Ghost.

The Father is God uncontained by His creation.

Jesus is God entering into His creation.

The Holy Spirit is God with us now."

What a brilliant and concise portrayal of the Trinity that is our God, Creator, Lord, and Saviour.

Thanks michael.
At 4/04/2006 01:51:00 am, Gordon said…

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the importance of the doctrine of the Trinity.

You have been presenting some sound arguments in the debate at Puritan Belief.
At 4/04/2006 11:13:00 pm, Modern Day Magi said…

“The words ‘God is love’ have no real meaning unless God contains at least two Persons. Love is something that one person has for another person. If God was a single person then before the world was made, He was not love.”

- C. S. Lewis.
At 4/05/2006 11:31:00 am, Modern Day Magi said…

thanks gordon,
MXU, anonymous, and Nathan White have been putting together wome excellent writing. That is partly why I have taken a backseat a little, not much more to add to what they have been saying.

riven always seems to take the debate personally with me too which clouds the issue.

I am curious as to who 'anonymous' is, I am guessing it is one of PB's regular readers/commentors who does not want to alienate him. What Anonomous has been saying has been great though.

MDM
At 4/05/2006 02:40:00 pm, Modern Day Magi said…

there has been some suggestion that OLY the Spirit can reveal the truth of GOD at Puritan Belief.
This is not true.
As can be seen from 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Ephesians 3:4-6

BOTH the Spirit and The Word work together to bring an understanding of truth.
At 4/06/2006 05:04:00 pm, Doug E. said…

Good post!

Doug
At 4/07/2006 12:12:00 am, Modern Day Magi said…

"...the knowledge of one God, consisting of three persons, Father, Son, and Spirit; for this is the doctrine of the Scriptures of truth"
- John Bunyan
At 4/07/2006 05:24:00 am, Mickey Sheu said…

MDM -

Thanks for the encouraging comment on my blog. I appreciate it.
At 4/07/2006 07:03:00 am, Modern Day Magi said…

But to say nothing more of words, let us now attend to the thing signified. By person, then, I mean a subsistence in the Divine essence, - a subsistence which, while related to the other two, is distinguished from them by incommunicable properties. By subsistence we wish something else to be understood than essence. For if the Word were God simply and had not some property peculiar to himself, John could not have said correctly that he had always been with God.When he adds immediately after, that the Word was God, he calls us back to the one essence. But because he could not be with God without dwelling in the Father, hence arises that subsistence, which, though connected with the essence by an indissoluble tie, being incapable of separation, yet has a special mark by which it is distinguished from it. Now, I say that each of the three subsistences while related to the others is distinguished by its own properties. Here relation is distinctly expressed, because, when God is mentioned simply and indefinitely the name belongs not less to the Son and Spirit than to the Father. But whenever the Father is compared with the Son, the peculiar property of each distinguishes the one from the other. Again, whatever is proper to each I affirm to be incommunicable, because nothing can apply or be transferred to the Son which is attributed to the Father as a mark of distinction. I have no objections to adopt the definition of Tertullian, provided it is properly understood, "that there is in God a certain arrangement or economy, which makes no change on the unity of essence." - Tertull. Lib. contra Praxeam.
- John Calvin
At 4/08/2006 10:01:00 pm, Jeff said…

I believe the trinity is a terrible heresy, and sets Jesus up to look like a schitzophrenic. How could plead with himself to find out if he's forsaken himself? That makes no sense. The Bible does not teach Trinity. It teaches about the one true God, and Jesus Christ, His Son! Jesus never wanted to be worshipped or given glory. He wanted all glory to be given to the Father. Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. Jesus was incredibly clear on the issue. The concept of being one, expressed in the words of John, are also used to say that his disciples should be one with him. This does not imply that we meld into a single flesh, but that we are one in purpose, in spirit, in intent. That we are unified!

This heresy has been eating away at the foundation of the Faith of the various churches ever since it was adopted in the old councils and creeds, and it must be dismissed and the Truth be accepted in order to have a proper conception of the character, perfections and attributes of God.

Yes, Jesus Christ is divine. But there is only one God whom we worship, and that is Father. To worship another or a false God (like the "triune God") is idolatry. The law is: Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. Meshing beings together as a conglomarate with the True God, and calling them the True God, is no more true than saying that the Apostles are to be worshipped as God because Jesus said they are one with Him and the Father. Give up this false teaching, the wicked words of the wordly philosophies, and embrace the pure teachings of the Bible.
At 4/09/2006 07:51:00 pm, Modern Day Magi said…

Statements like "Yes, Jesus Christ is divine. But there is only one God whom we worship, and that is Father." are self contradictory.

If Jesus is divine and there is only One God, who is the Father, then Jesus and the Father must be one.

The trinity is a correct interpretation of scripture and to say otherwise shows a lack of understanding and discernment.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
John 1:1-3
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
- John 1:14
In the above verses we have clear distinction between the Word who became flesh (Jesus) and the Father. We also see that The Word (Jesus) created all things. Genesis 1:1 tells us that God created everything so therfore as scripture never contradicts itself we have the fact that Jesus is God. But The Father, who is also God is distinct and separate from Jesus.

Scenes like the Baptism of Jesus have The Father, Jesus and the Holy spirit all present at once so it is clear that they are distinct. Jesus is God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, not three Gods but One.
At 4/09/2006 07:53:00 pm, Modern Day Magi said…

As to the origins of Trinitarian doctorine tet us consult history for a moment.

The first time the term "catholic church was used was in 110AD when Ignatius of Antioch uses the term catholic church in a letter to the church at Smyrna (Date disputed, some insist it was a forgery written in 250 or later. Others insist he merely meant "catholic", small "c", as in Universal.)
While the Church is obviously traced back to Jesus most historians will agree that the Catholic church as we know it today began in the fourth-century Roman Empire, when Constantine I issued the Edict of Milan in 313. Christianity was the Roman state religion from 380.

Now lets examine where the concept of the trinity comes in. The Trinity was first Officially established in 325 at the first council of Nicea. IF IT BEGINS HERE 300 YEARS AFTER JESUS WE HAVE A PROBLEM.

So we have the Catholic Church officially established in 318 AD and the Trinity offiated in 325 AD

Now lets go back a bit further.
Justin of Caesarea also known as Justin the Martyr is considered the first Christian apologist. He lived and wrote in 100-165AD (200ish years before the Catholic CHurch began)He is the first Christian writer to examine the Trinity. He uses that analogy of Fire to explain it.
God, like a fire in heaven sent His son Jesus as a fire into the world. Now if you have on lite candle and use it to light another, while there are now two location for the flame they are actually the one flame. Look at the olympic torch relay, the whole premis is that transfering the flame from one torch to another does not make new fires but simply transfers the one flame to another location.
Now this analogy is great and while Justin only examined the Father and Son it can easily be seen that on the day of pentocost when the Spirit entered believers, and flames were manifested above their heads, that while the fire entered humanity it was not a whole bunch of 'new flames' but simply the fire of God comming to mankind.
Father, the fire in heaven.
Jesus, the fore of God comming to earth.
The Spirit, the fire of God which is the Fire of Jesus entering believeers. Distinct flames but the one Fire.

MDM

jeff please read the 3 articles linked at the bottom of the original post if you have not already. I think you will benefit from seeing what they say.
At 4/24/2006 04:36:00 pm, Modern Day Magi said…

"“The things,” they say, “which we teach concerning the Trinity, are contrary to reason;” and thereof they endeavour to give sundry instances, wherein the sum of the opposition which they make unto this truth does consist. But first, I ask, What reason is it that they intend? It is their own, the carnal reason of men. By that they will judge of these divine mysteries. The Scripture tells us, indeed, that the “spirit of a man which is in him knows the things of a man,” — a man’s spirit, by natural reason, may judge of natural things; — “but the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God,” 1 Cor. ii. 11. So that what we know of these things, we must receive upon the revelation of the Spirit of God merely, if the apostle may be believed. And it is given unto men to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, — to some, and not to others; and unless it be so given them, they cannot know them. In particular, none can know the Father unless the Son reveal him. Nor will, or does, or can, flesh and blood reveal or understand Jesus Christ to be the Son of the living God, unless the Father reveal him, and instruct us in the truth of it, Matt. xvi. 17. The way to come to the acknowledgment of these things, is that described by the apostle, Eph. iii. 14–19, “For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints,” etc. As also, Col. ii. 2, 3, That ye might come “unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” It is by faith and prayer, and through the revelation of God, that we may come to the acknowledgment of these things, and not by the carnal reasonings of men of corrupt minds."

- John Owen
At 4/24/2006 04:36:00 pm, Modern Day Magi said…

"But while the subject humbles the mind, it also expands it. He who often thinks of God, will have a larger mind than the man who simply plods around this narrow globe.... The most excellent study for expanding the soul, is the science of Christ, and Him crucified, and the knowledge of the Godhead in the glorious Trinity. Nothing will so enlarge the intellect, nothing so magnify the whole soul of man, as a devout, earnest, continued investigation of the great subject of the Deity."

- C. H. Spurgeon
At 5/05/2006 09:11:00 am, Modern Day Magi said…

ajlin wrote:

Have you ever noticed that before the Fall in Gen. 3, after God had created Man "in His image" in Gen. 1, God pronounced of Man, "it is not good that Man shall be alone" in Gen. 2:18? Now why was it "not good" that Man shall be alone? And why does Gen. 1:27 read, "So God created Man in His own image, in the image of God he created Him; male and female He created them"? I propose that the reason for God's statement in Gen. 2:18 is found in the verse after that which is the subject of this post- in John 1:2- which says of the Word, "He was with God in the beginning". Essential to God's nature is the fact that "God is love" (I Jn. 4:16). The Bible teaches that the one and only God has existed eternally in a state of love. Though He preexisted all of creation, He was never alone, for there has always been a real communion between Persons within the Godhead. This is revealed in John 1:2 and in John 17:5 in which Jesus speaks to the Father concerning a relationship they shared "before the world existed." So our loving God is singular, but He has never been alone. Therefore, when He decided to create image-bearers it was necessary that Man not be alone, but rather he must be joined to another- the Woman- who is different in physiology and who has a different role in the created order, but who is also said to be made in God's image.

Failing to accept the truth that God is one and that He has always existed in a relationship between real persons, one is doomed to have a sub-biblical understanding of the nature of God and the nature of Man as well.
At 5/05/2006 05:57:00 pm, Modern Day Magi said…

ajlin wrote:

In proclaiming the Gospel to my friend Rodson who had been exposed to the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses (and thus had developed Arian beliefs), it was necessary for me to defend the doctrine of the Trinity. Rodson, though persuaded by the Gospel that I proclaimed, had honest questions about passages of Scripture which teach a distinction between Jesus and God. These passages abound in the Gospel accounts, where Jesus is referred to as the Son of God ("how can God be His own Son?"), where Jesus is referred to as being begotten by God ("how can God beget God?"), where Jesus prays to the Father ("how can God pray to God?"), and where Jesus cries out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" ("how can God forsake God?"). In refuting Arianism, my first duty was to proclaim the deity of Christ, a fact of Scripture attested to by passages such as John 1:1, Rev. 1:8, etc., then I had to speak more about the relationship within the Godhead, referencing verses such as Psalm 110:1. In speaking of the verse spoken by Jesus on the Cross, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" I was able to turn the conversation back to the heart of the Gospel, what the Apostle called "the message of the Cross", that Christ died as an act of propitiation- bearing our sins before the righteousness of God and receiving the wrath that we were due.

But still Rodson had trouble believing in the deity of Christ due not so much to the proof-texts put forth by the JWs, but to the fact that he could not completely understand the Trinity. My reply to him was that if we could search out and completely know everything about God, if we could 'place Him under a microscope', then He wouldn't really be worth our worship. God is infinite, and so there will always be more to who He is than we can fully understand- we must simply accept the clear teaching of Scripture.

I asked Rodson if he believed that Scripture taught that Jesus was indeed God and the Son of God, then- when he said "yes"- I asked if he believed that he deserved the wrath of God againt his sin. Rodson did, and I could tell that he was serious about his confession. Then I asked him if he wished to trust in Jesus alone as the perfect sacrifice for sin on his behalf. Rodson did, and that night he cried out to God for mercy through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Why am I relating all of this in the current comment thread? It is because anyone who has had experience in proclaiming the Gospel to those involved in cults knows the importance of understanding what the Bible says about the doctrine of the Trinity. If I did not understand both the unity of God and the real peronal relationship existing between the Father and the Son, then I would have been either entirely stumped by the questions with which I was presented, or I would have been reduced to basically asserting that Jesus was engaging in some sort of elaborate charade. In the current discussion, the Unitarian position being proclaimed is obscuring the Gospel message, for crucial Bible passages concerning God's work (such as Eph. 1:3-14) are being stripped of their full meaning. Other passages (John 17:5 comes to mind) are being systematically ignored, while other Scriptures (and here I indicate paul g's past abuse of II Cor. 11:2) are being added to.

The doctrine of the Trinity- one God in a real relationship of real persons- is not something that can be comprehended by human reason. It is not a teaching that could ever have been invented by people at all. Rather, for this teaching we are entirely dependent upon special revelation- God's Word- which clearly proclaims Jesus as having been with the Father- "in [His] own presence- before the world existed.

That we cannot fully comprehend these things should come as no surprise, as the Apostle proclaims:

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33-34 ESV)

This teaching should promote humility and faith as we acknowledge our utter dependence upon God for an understanding of even the most basic aspects of His character.
At 7/17/2006 09:10:00 am, Modern Day Magi said…

See John 8:12-29

I love how a child will believe the above but an adult decieved with the heresies of Modalism, Sabellianism, Unitarianism, Arianism, Monarchism, Patripassianism or Branhamism etc CAN NOT and WILL NOT, in spite of scripture.
At 1/09/2009 07:38:00 am, Anonymous said…

http://onhotitems.blogspot.com/
I found this link to be extremely informative on the subject of trinity and church idolatry.
At 7/09/2009 01:59:00 pm, Anonymous said…

I understand it is orthodox to believe in the concept of the Trinity. However, excluding the Gospel of John, which differs so completely from Matthew , Mark and Luke, there is a genuine debate about the divinity of Jesus and the Trinity.

In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus refers to himself as the "Son of Man". I am not sure what this term means, but I believe the context can be found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Jesus, outside of John, does not claim divinity. He views himself as a prophet proclaiming the Kingdom of God and the forgiveness of sins. Jesus is subordinate to God. He says so many times. In Matthew, when Jesus teaches his disciples to pray, they pray to God the Father in heaven. When asked the greatest commandment, Jesus replies, "Love of the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul". Jesus views himself as a messenger from God, like the Hebrew prophets of old. This is how Mark, the earliest gospel presents him.

Paul writes that God adopted Jesus. That Jesus was man who was raised from the dead by God. Because of his righteous living, God elevated him to his right hand.

One can quote scripture to support either position. One must understand that the Trinity is not self- evident and is a theology developed by man. The Trinity does not exist in the Hebrew Scriptures, however, it does exist in Hinduism.

In the Hebrew scriptures, Israel is considered the Son of God or sons of God. Being called a son of God in the Hebrew scriptures does not make one divine, but only signifies the special relationship between God and Israel.

God in flesh is a foreign concept in both Judaism and Islam. However, we see plenty examples of this in Greek and Roman mythologies which later Christianity borrowed heavily from.

I look forward to the continuing discussion.

Modern Day Magi

Sunday, April 02, 2006

The Trinity: False polytheism or Correct doctorine?

19 Comments:

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